The following is the transcript of an interview with House Speaker Mike Johnson, Republican of Louisiana, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 25, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We begin with the passage of what President Trump is calling his “Big Beautiful Bill,” and the man who got it through the House, Speaker Mike Johnson, who joins us from Benton, Louisiana. Good morning to you, Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Hey, good morning, and I wish a blessed Memorial Day weekend to everybody.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Indeed. Well, you got this massive tax and border bill through, just barely, one vote margin. You pulled an all-nighter. Among other things, it will eliminate taxes on tips and overtime. Put about $50 billion towards the border wall and hiring Border Patrol agents, keep in place existing individual tax rates, create savings accounts for kids with a one-time deposit of $1,000, increase the child tax credit by about 500 bucks. The- the bill on this is estimated to be between four and $5 trillion over the next decade. How much do you think this is all going to cost?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Well, that’s about the right estimate. But at the same time, we have historic savings for the American people. Cuts to government to make it more efficient and effective and- and work better for the people. That was a big campaign promise of President Trump and a big promise of ours, and we’re going to achieve that. So in the calculation here, there’s more than $1.5 trillion in savings, Margaret, for the people. And that’s- that’s the largest amount- biggest cut in government, really, in at least 30 years and if you adjust for inflation, probably the largest in the history of government. So we’re proud of what we produced here. We’ve checked all the boxes, where all the things that you mentioned in existence- in addition to American energy dominance, investing in our military industrial base, which is appropriate for us to talk about this weekend and so many other priorities and that’s why we call it the “One Big Beautiful Bill. I think arguably, it’s the most consequential legislation that Congress will pass in many generations, and it’s a long time coming.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, just this morning, we did hear from some of your Republican colleagues over in the Senate, where this heads next, that they can’t support the bill as it is written. I think you know this. Senator Rand Paul said the cuts are ‘wimpy and anemic,’ ‘the math doesn’t add up,’ it will ‘explode the debt.’ In addition to that political criticism, you’ve already seen–

SPEAKER JOHNSON: –Yeah, Senator Paul and I are–

MARGARET BRENNAN: –Moody’s credit rating agency downgrade American credit and Goldman Sachs says that this bill will not offset the damage from the President’s tariffs. Isn’t this an economic gamble?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: No, it’s not an economic gamble. It’s a big investment. And look, this- what this bill is going to do is be jet fuel to the U.S. economy. It is going to foster a pro growth economy. What do we mean by that? Because we’re reducing taxes, we’re reducing regulations, we’re going to increase and incentivize American manufacturing again. And what will- the effect this will have in the economy is that entrepreneurs and risk takers and job creators will have an easier time in doing that. They will allow for more jobs and more opportunity for more people, and wages will increase. Now, Margaret, this is not a theoretical exercise. We did this already in the first Trump administration. After just the first two years, we brought about the greatest economy in the history of the world, not just the U.S. because we did it- followed a very simple formula, we cut taxes and we cut regulations. This time–

MARGARET BRENNAN: You didn’t do it in the middle of a tariff war.

SPEAKER JOHNSON: –we’re doing that on steroids.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In the first administration, there was sequencing–

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Well, no.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You got tax reform- the Republicans got tax reform through and held off the tariff war. Goldman Sachs says, “the hit to growth from tariffs will more than offset the boost to growth from the fiscal package.” That’s Goldman Sachs.

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Well- well, I know. I respect Goldman Sachs, but I think what they’re discounting here is the growth that will be spurred on by this legislation, and the fact that the so-called tariff war is beginning to subside already. You’ve got over 75 countries that are negotiating new, more fair trade agreements for the U.S. right now because of the President’s insistence that that be done and it was decades overdue. That is going to benefit every American, it’s going to benefit the consumers. You know, they howled when the first tariffs- reciprocal tariffs policy was announced, and they said that prices would skyrocket. That simply hasn’t happened. Many of those early estimates were far off, and that’s being proven now. So what I think will happen is the tariffs, you know, contest will subside. This legislation will pass and get the economy going again and people will feel that. They’ll see it in their own pocketbooks, in their own opportunity and every American household is going to benefit by these policies.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know Walmart has already said that it will have to raise prices. It’s not theoretical. And the President on Friday was talking about even more tariffs, this time on Apple and others. But back- back to your end of the- of the deal here, for this tax relief, you  talked about the cuts to pay for it all. You are eliminating subsidized federal student loans so the government will no longer cover the interest on debt while borrowers’ in school. You’re eliminating 500 billion in clean energy subsidies and you’re terminating early tax breaks for electric vehicles. Alongside that, you’re carrying out about a trillion in reductions to Medicaid and food stamps. We looked at your home state, and the projection is that nearly 200,000 Louisianans will lose their Medicaid coverage because of this. How do you defend that to your constituents?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: We have not cut Medicaid, and we have not cut SNAP. What we’re doing, Margaret, is working on fraud, waste and abuse, and everyone in Louisiana and around the country understands that that’s a responsibility of Congress. Just in- in Medicaid, for example, you’ve got 1.4 million illegal aliens receiving those benefits. That is not what Medicaid is intended for. It’s intended for vulnerable populations, for young, single, pregnant women and the elderly and the disabled and people who desperately need those resources. Right now, they’re being drained by fraud, waste and abuse. You’ve got about 4.8 million people on Medicaid right now nationwide who are able-bodied workers, young men, for example, who are not working, who are taking advantage of the system. If you are able to work and you refuse to do so, you are defrauding the system. You’re cheating the system. And no one in the country believes that that’s right. So there’s a- there’s a moral component to what we’re doing. And when you make young men work, it’s good for them, it’s good for their dignity, it’s good for their self worth, and it’s good for the community that they live in.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure, but in- first of all, just undocumented immigrants, you know, are not eligible for food stamps or Medicaid. Some–

SPEAKER JOHNSON: And yet they’re receiving them that’s the problem–

MARGARET BRENNAN: –lawfully present immigrants are. So the 190,000 Louisianans that are projected by KFF as losing their Medicaid. Your position is they were just lazy, not working? That they were undocumented? What about them? How do you defend that they will be losing their benefits?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: No. What we’re talking about again, is able-bodied workers, many of whom are refusing to work because they’re gaming the system. And when we make them work, it’ll be better for everybody, a win-win-win for all. By the way, the work requirements, Margaret, is not some onerous, burdensome thing. It’s a minimum of 20 hours a week. You could either be working or be in a job program, a job training program, or volunteering in your community. This is not some, some onerous thing ,this is common sense. And when the American people understand what we are doing here, they applaud it. This is a wildly popular thing, because we have to preserve the programs. What we’re doing is strengthening Medicaid and SNAP so that they can exist, so that they’ll be there for the people that desperately need it the most, and it’s not being taken advantage of. And this is something that everybody in Congress, Republicans and Democrats should agree to.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, one of your Republican colleagues over in the Senate has been very vocal about his concern in regard to what you’re doing to Medicaid. Josh Hawley has been arguing it is ‘morally wrong and politically suicidal’ to slash health insurance for the working poor. He said the cost sharing language will force people at or just over the federal poverty level to pay as much as $35 for a medical visit, which means working people will pay more. How do you defend that? Because you know, in the Senate, they are going to make changes to this.

SPEAKER JOHNSON: My friend Josh Hawley is a fiscal conservative as I am. We don’t want to slash benefits. And again, I make this very clear. We are not cutting Medicaid. We are not cutting SNAP. We’re working in the elements of fraud, waste and abuse. SNAP, for example, listen to the statistics, in 2024 over $11 billion in SNAP payments were- were erroneous. I mean, that’s- that’s a number that everyone acknowledges is real. It may be much higher than that–

[CROSSTALK]

MARGARET BRENNAN: Louisiana is like–

SPEAKER JOHNSON: But here’s the problem, the states–

MARGARET BRENNAN: — the second largest recipient of food stamps in the country, sir.

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Let me explain it, Margaret. Let me explain it. The states- the states are not properly administering this because they don’t have enough skin in the game. So what we’ve done in the bill is add some- just a modest state sharing component, so that they’ll pay attention to that, so that we can reduce fraud. Why? Again, so that it is preserved for the people that need it the most. This is common sense, Margaret. It’s good government, and everybody on both sides of the aisle should agree to that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Senator Hawley objects to that cost sharing language. He is the one leveraging that criticism. This is going to change, you know that, when it goes to the Senate. How do you- how do you put Republicans up to have to defend these things when they are facing an election in 17 months?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: We got almost every vote in the House because we worked on it for more than a year in finding the exact balance of reforms to the program so that we can save them and secure them. I think- I think Senator Hawley will see that when he looks into the details of what we passed on Thursday. This is a big thing, it’s an historic thing, once in a generation legislation. We call it the ‘One Big Beautiful Bill’ because it’s going to do so much and the America first agenda will be delivered for the people just as we promised. And look, I had lunch with my Senate Republican colleagues on Tuesday, their weekly luncheon, and I encouraged them to remember that we are one team. It’s the Senate and the House Republicans together that will deliver this- this ball over the goal line, so to speak. And I encouraged them to make as few modifications as possible, remembering that I have a very delicate balance on our very diverse Republican caucus over in the House.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah, well, you- you have five to six Republicans from high tax states who are not going to want to see that change in the state and local tax deductions and there’s not a commitment to that in the Senate. Can you still get this through the house without SALT?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Look, we- there’s got to be a modification to SALT, and as I’ve explained to my Senate colleagues many times, you know, they don’t have SALT caucus in the Senate because they’re all from red states, but in the House, we do have a number of members who are elected in places like New York and California and New Jersey, and they have to provide some relief to their constituents. Those are what we call our majority makers. Those are the people who are elected in the toughest districts and help us have the numbers to keep the majority in the House, and so, this is political reality. We’d love to cut more costs. We’d love to do even more, but we have to deal within the realm of possibility. And I think this is a huge leap forward for fiscal responsibility, for a government that’s effective and accountable to the people and real relief for hard working Americans, and they well deserve it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well before I let you go, I want to ask you about another provision that was tucked into this bill. Democrats say it is weakening separation of powers and punishing the courts. It’s a specific provision that would restrict a federal court’s power to enforce injunctions with contempt, unless there was a bond attached to it. Sounds really weedy, but it’s causing a lot of outcry. If this might get stripped out in the Senate anyway, why did you bother to stick it in?

SPEAKER JOHNSON: Well, we bothered to stick it in because that’s our responsibility in Congress. It is about separation of powers, and right now you have activist judges, a handful of them around the country, who are abusing that power. They’re issuing these nationwide injunctions. They’re- they’re engaging in political acts from the bench, and that is not what our system is intended for. And people have lost their- their- their faith in our system of justice. We have to restore it and bringing about a simple reform like that is something that I think everybody should applaud.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, thank you for your time this morning. ‘Face the Nation’ will be back in a minute. Stay with us.

The following is the transcript of an interview with Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 25, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Congressman Jim Himes. He is the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, and he joins us today from Greenwich, Connecticut. Good morning to you.

REP. JIM HIMES: Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You just heard the speaker. I know you did not vote for this bill. But you know, Connecticut has one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the country. Do you at least like that one little portion of this bill?

REP. HIMES: That one little portion is going to be good for my constituents, but Margaret, I- I got to tell you, it was like listening to “1984” or something, listening to the speaker. You know, anybody can look this up, the American people want basically three things out of their federal budget. Number one, at this point in time when Americans, the wealthiest Americans, are doing better than ever before, Americans want the wealthiest of the Amer- of Americans to pay more taxes, and to give tax relief to the middle class and below. Number two, they want us to address the deficit, which is now spiraling out of control to the point where we got a downgrade in one of the U.S. credit ratings. And third, they want a simpler tax code. This bill spe- fails spectacularly on all three counts. They’re cutting Medicaid and nutritional assistance, food stamps, to tens of millions of Americans in order to preserve tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. They’re adding $3 trillion to the deficit with this bill. And lastly, they’re gumming up the tax code with, you don’t have to pay taxes on tips. Now, what about the folks who don’t earn tips? You know, auto lending. I mean, again, on the three things that Americans care most about, that they want the Congress to do, this bill fails spectacularly. Look, and that’s going to show up in the polling pretty soon, as Americans come to realize what it is that the House of Representatives just did .

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to ask you about your other role on the House Intelligence Committee. When it comes to what the President has vowed to do to Russia, he floated this idea two weeks ago of possible sanctions if Russia doesn’t stop its war in Ukraine. But then he spoke to Vladimir Putin on Monday, and we heard nothing about sanctions. We did hear from the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency that this war is trending in favor of Russia. What changes need to be made, if anything, to how the U.S. provides support?

REP. HIMES: Well, Margaret, look, we’re at a fork in the road with respect to the Russia-Ukraine war. And you know, Donald Trump and his acolytes in the Congress will go along with one of these two choices: either we will continue the trajectory that started when the president and the vice president humiliated Vladimir- humiliated President Zelenskyy in the Oval Office and paused aid, and Vladimir Putin will learn from that experience that he can count on the U.S. to support his murderous incursions into neighboring countries. Or we can take another path, which I hope the president will take, which is to say, what we need to do right now is generate maximum leverage against Vladimir Putin, and I see the president getting a little frustrated by him, but that maximum leverage comes because we really uptick the sanctions. We stop the export of oil. We pressure India to stop buying Russian oil, and of course, we keep arming the Ukrainians. Again, for this guy who considers himself the master of the deal, maximize the leverage of the West so that we can bring this war not just to a conclusion, but to a fair and just conclusion that will keep the Russians from invading countries in the future.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In your role on the Intelligence Committee, you get to see things the public does not. With that in mind, the President has designated this Venezuelan gang, Tren de Ar- Aragua, TDA, as a foreign terrorist organization. He says they’re invading the country. He’s using the Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged members without a day in court. Part of the legal justification of all of this rests on the claim that the Venezuelan government is controlling what TDA is doing. The National Intelligence Council assessed the Maduro government does not control the gang. But, on this program last Sunday, the secretary of state rejected that. He says he favors the FBI’s finding, which is that some members of the Venezuelan government do influence the gang. Why does all of this matter?

REP. HIMES: Well, it matters Margaret, because I’ll remind you that in the George W. Bush administration, exactly what is happening right now happened. It was a different topic. Right now, despite the conclusions of the intelligence community, the president, the Director of National Intelligence and the secretary of state are saying that Venezuela directs Tren De Aragua. Now they’re saying that because they need this no due process mechanism of deporting people, the Alien Enemies Act, which, by the way, the courts are now laughing at. But the reason it matters, Margaret, is because the last time the White House did this, when they were determined that the intelligence community be forced to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which there turned out not to be, 4,400 American servicemen perished in a war that was fought on false pretenses, not to mention, by the way, the many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who perished in that war, which was a catastrophic strategic mistake driven by the politicization, the- the notion that George W. Bush had that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. That’s why intelligence matters. There’s 4,400 families in this country who lost people because the White House decided they would override the conclusion of their $90 billion a year intelligence community. That’s what Marco Rubio is doing. That’s what the president is doing, and that’s what Director Gabbard are doing when they contradict what their own organization is telling them.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So on that point, this is also becoming an issue for Joe Kent, who is the president’s nominee to run the National Counterterrorism Center. He’s under scrutiny because emails show that while acting as chief of staff to DNI Gabbard, he pressed analysts to amend an assessment of links between the government and TDA. According to redacted emails that my network has obtained, he wrote, “we need to do some rewriting, a little more analysis so this document is not used against the DNI or POTUS,” the president of the United States. He says, “we need to…incorporate the FBI’s assessment.” You have now read these declassified emails as well. Do you believe that Joe Kent was just asking for more context?

REP. HIMES: No, he absolutely was not. And I have seen the redacted emails. He was pressuring the National Intelligence Council to alter their conclusions. And look, he gave away the game. You just read the line. He told us why he did that, so that this report would not be used against the president or the Director of National Intelligence. Think about that. The chief of staff of the- of the Office of the Director National Intelligence wasn’t saying, we need the very best intelligence here. We need you to go back and make sure you’re 100% true. He was saying, we need to make sure that your product is not used to embarrass the president and the Director of National Intelligence. That is the very definition, the very definition, of politicizing intelligence. This is not about embarrassing or not embarrassing anybody. Again, back to those 4,400 dead Americans. So no, Joe Kent must never be confirmed for any Senate confirmed- look, it’s all out there for the Senate to see. So no, he may- he must never be confirmed for any Senate confirmed position because of what he did.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay. And those emails are available for the public to read as well. Congressman Himes, thank you for your time today. We’ll be right back with a lot more “Face the Nation.”

The following is the transcript of an interview with Navy veteran Jack McCain that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 25, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN  And we’re back with another McCain. Jack McCain is the son of Cindy and the late Senator John McCain. He’s a Navy veteran who served in the Afghanistan War, and he joins us now from Kyoto, Japan. Good to have you here.

JACK MCCAIN: Thank you. I’m incredibly glad to be here. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we know when you were in Afghanistan, you flew alongside and helped to train some of the Afghan Black Hawk pilots. Why is it important to you now to speak out on their behalf? Are any of your personal contacts there at risk?

MCCAIN: Yes, basically everyone that we were unable to get out is at risk. These pilots and crew members fought the Taliban toe to toe, and because of that, the Taliban is trying to seek them out for reprisal, something that they distinctly promised that they would not do. So not only they- are they in danger, but we owe them a debt. I believe that I’m vertical and still on this earth because of the efforts of my Afghan pilots and crews. And not only do I owe them personally, but the nation owes them a debt of honor, one that we have yet to repay. Everyone, interpreters, ground troop pilots that worked and fought alongside the United States at our behest, should be able to be evacuated here to the United States and should be taken care of.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you were active duty at the time of the very chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. I know you helped to get Afghans out. During that period of time, there were a lot of Afghans airlifted out. Who was left behind and what promises were made?

MCCAIN: Yeah, the problem is everyone was left behind, whether it was family members, including family members of U.S. servicemen, whether it was pilots, crews, the people that I worked with, special forces. We did everything we could to get as many as we could out. But through the chaos of the withdrawal and frankly, the lack of planning on the part of the United States government, it was up to individuals and sometimes smaller military units to help either- in my case, I had to triage who we were going to take out. I had to prioritize operational pilots over pilots in training, versus crew members in the back, simply because everyone was trying to do everything they could. So we have tens of thousands that fought alongside us left behind, each one of them in danger in their own way, not to mention family members that can be used as tools of leverage against those that are even here in the United States now.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And to that point: under the Taliban right now, women aren’t even allowed to speak in public. They can’t go to school over the sixth- past the sixth grade. They’re not allowed to work. So the daughters, the wives, the female family members of a lot of these people who worked with Americans are facing some pretty tough conditions. However, this administration just recently said through Homeland Security that it is safe for Afghans to return. So those here could be sent back, some Afghans who had arrived here and been given temporary protection. Does what the U.S. government said match in any way what you are hearing is happening on the ground?

MCCAIN: I would disagree with the entire notion that it is safe for anyone, especially if they’ve been in the United States, to return to rule under the Taliban. Whether they are, male, female, young, old, that regime has proven itself to be- to not only have gone back on every promise they made to us, but to be- to have no problem using human lives as pawns to imprison, torture, rape, kill, even sell into slavery. So no, I disagree that Afghanistan is safe for anybody, much less those that fought on behalf of the United States. My pilots were doing gun runs on Taliban positions as they were moving forward on the base in Kandahar. I would say that they have a score- the Taliban have a score they’d like to settle. So absolutely, not unequivocally, it is not safe to return.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So there are a number of veterans of the war in Afghanistan who serve currently as lawmakers in the United States Congress. And it is Congress that sets the number of visas for the- these Special Immigrant Visas, SIVs. We checked, there are more than 144,000 applicants in the pipeline, but there are only 11,000 visas left. So that’s not even counting family members here. Have you gotten any indication from the lawmakers you know that they are going to raise that cap?

MCCAIN: No, I have not, and it is an utter travesty that that is the case. People on both sides of the aisle had- have served in Afghanistan or fought alongside Afghans, much like me, and the political theater that has taken place of simply ignoring the problem can only be summarized by the word despicable. This is an issue of humanity. This is an issue of national honor, and this is a debt that we owe. So I would urge lawmakers on both sides of the aisle to solve this problem, because it is not going to go away. It is your job to legislate, so please do so.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  So that’s in the hand of lawmakers. That was a problem even during the last administration. Now though, we have this extra complication where the Trump administration has put in orders to restrict refugee admissions and said the U.S. should prioritize people who can, quote, “fully and appropriately assimilate and who do not pose a threat to the security or welfare of the United States.” That’s made it hard for Afghan refugees, family members to enter here. How do you reassure the public that these refugees are not a risk? Even the Vice President of the United States has said he does not trust the vetting of refugees.

MCCAIN: Well, I mean, I think I passed the ultimate test in that I literally put my lives in- my life in these peoples’ hands. So not only are they worthy of trust, but they are worthy of our care. The vetting process has taken place. It continues to take place. And if vetting is the issue, fantastic. Let’s pass legislation to solve that problem. Let’s make sure everyone up to this point has been vetted. But if there’s something else that would make anyone on any side of the aisle feel safer, then great, there’s a solution for this. It’s called the legislative process. So I would urge lawmakers to do the one job that they’re paid by the American people to do, and to solve the problem that we have created ourselves.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  Secretary Rubio testified this week that he will follow the letter of the law as written by Congress. Congress had established a program to help pay for the Afghans to be resettled here. It’s the CARE Program at the State Department, but now the program is no longer paying the way for these Afghans. How difficult is it for some of the Afghans you know to pay to get their wife, their family members here?

MCCAIN:  These people were taken from their country with only the clothes on their back in about 99% of cases. They were dumped off into locations that they were unfamiliar with, and as much as service members and the government did an amazing amount to try to support them, it’s still not enough. When you imagine the massive change in their lives, not to mention the fact that their entire country and family has now been shattered as a result of American action. It is beyond difficult. I have individuals who are combat wounded, who have extreme injuries that make them almost unable to work, and it’s not like I can send them to the VA despite the fact that they got shot at on behalf of the American government. So I would say that life is extremely difficult, but those individuals are of great resolve, and they are doing everything they can to overcome and to become great Americans, the great Americans that I know they will be, and that anybody that knows them personally knows them to be.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  There have been a few investigations of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, by the Pentagon, by the State Department. They have found fault with the Biden administration. They have found fault with the first Trump administration. This past week, Secretary Hegseth announced he’s going to do a new investigation of it all. That it will be led by his spokesperson. It’s unclear why that person in particular. What do you think was missing from those original reviews?

MCCAIN:  I don’t think anything is missing from those original reviews, and I don’t think that going back over the process of the withdrawal is going to solve any of the very real problems that exist today. It was political theater the first time, it is political theater the second time, and it is political theater yet again. This does nothing to solve the problem that we created. This does nothing to make the lives of Afghans better. This does nothing to help stabilize the region. It is simply the Biden administration pointing the finger at the Trump administration, the Trump administration pointing the finger at the Biden administration. It’s happening all over again. This is a useless waste of effort, but frankly, it is one that I see continuing.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  Before I let you go. Your father famously said it matters less that you can fight, but what you fight for is the real test. I know you feel passionately about this particular issue. Can you ever see yourself entering politics to fight for other issues?

MCCAIN:  That’s a very interesting question, one that I happen to get asked fairly regularly. And I would say, trying to follow his example, that the best life is one lived adventurously, and if- in service of a cause greater than one’s self interest. I’m doing that, and if someday that does take me to office, in service of the nation, then by all means. But to live a life simply focused on the single goal of attaining public office is not, in my mind, a life purposefully lived. In service and in office, it is a purposefully lived one, but that should not be the overriding goal of your life.

MARGARET BRENNAN:  We will continue watching. Jack McCain, thank you for weighing in on this important issue.

MCCAIN: Thank you so much.

The following is the transcript of an interview with Cindy McCain, World Food Programme executive director, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on May 25, 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation. We turn now to the Executive Director of the United Nations World Food Programme, Cindy McCain. She joins us this morning from Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Good morning to you.

U.N. WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR CINDY MCCAIN: Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about a few hotspots in Africa, but let’s start first on the Middle East if we could. In Gaza, we have this man-made catastrophe with Israeli authorities blocking the entry of all aid from March until about May 18. The Trump administration said Israel needs to let in food. So are your deliveries consistently now getting through?

MCCAIN: Well, let’s start with the fact that this is a catastrophe, and you’re absolutely correct, and I’m very grateful that you are covering this issue. They have let a few trucks in. This is a drop in the bucket as to what’s needed. Right now, we have 500,000 people inside of Gaza that are- that are extremely food insecure, and could be on the verge of famine if we don’t help bring them back from that. We need to get in, and we need to get in at scale, not just a few dribble of the trucks right now, as I said, it’s a drop in the bucket.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So how many trucks need to be getting in daily to address the scale of the need you see, and can they get into northern Gaza?

MCCAIN: Well, prior to the, you know, during the cease-fire, I should say, we were getting in 600 trucks a day. Right now, we’re getting in maybe 100 something like that. So it’s not nearly enough, and it needs to be going to the correct places. So the various gates, it’s inconsistent as to how the gates are open. It’s inconsistent as to the roads we can use. The roads that are the better roads, the ones that can get us further along, aren’t open at all. It’s complicated right now and again, I will tell anybody who will listen, we need to get in and get in at scale and be allowed to feed these people before further catastrophe occurs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Your organization announced at least 15 of your trucks were looted when they entered southern Gaza en route to bakeries. Israel has consistently said that the looting is being carried out by Hamas. Have you seen evidence that it is Hamas stealing the food?

MCCAIN: No, not at all. Not- not in this round. Listen, these people are desperate, and they see a World Food Programme truck coming in, and they run for it. This- this doesn’t have anything to do with Hamas or any kind of organized crime, or anything. It has simply to do with the fact these people are starving to death, and so we will continue to go in. We will continue to go in with food and the kinds of supplies we need to help the bakeries operate and make sure that we can continue to do that, and hopefully be able to do more of it. But again, we can’t do this unless the world community puts pressure on this. We can’t be allowed to sit back and watch these people starve to death with no outside diplomatic influence to help us. These- these- these poor souls are really, really, really desperate. And you know, having been in- in a food riot myself some years ago, I understand the desperation very well.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, five days ago, Prime Minister Netanyahu vowed to take control of all of Gaza, which seems to be a shift from going in, carrying out raids and then withdrawing. We’ve seen the Pope speak out. We’ve seen the leaders of France, of Canada, of the U.K. calling the cutting of aid egregious. Netanyahu said criticism like that is feeding Hamas and really feeding anti-semitism. What do you make of that pushback from him, that criticisms of the state are feeding hate?

MCCAIN: What I do know is you’re not feeding people and the most important part of this is that’s what we’re supposed to be doing. I’m very grateful for anyone, the Pope, any of the folks that did, did shout out and say, listen, we need to get more in, but I can’t tell you as to what exactly what Netanyahu is thinking or anything else. What I do know for a fact is that we need food to get into Gaza to avoid an utter catastrophe.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The Israeli army had announced aid will be distributed under what they described as an American plan. Prime Minister Netanyahu said it will be American companies giving food directly to Palestinian families in safe zones secured by the Israeli military. There’s reporting in the Washington Post that these are armed private contractors doing logistics, Palestinians will have to submit to identity checks to be fed, and that would replace the U.N. coordinated networks, presumably also the World Food Programme. Do you know how much longer you will be allowed to operate in Gaza?  

MCCAIN: I’ve not seen a plan from anybody. We continue to operate, doing what we do best, and we are the largest and the best at what we do, I might add. I- we’ve never been- a plan has ever been proposed to us. We really don’t know what’s coming around the bend. We will continue to operate. We will work with anybody, if it will feed people. That’s the most important part here is that we can’t turf off on things we will, we need to work together. We need to be able to feed these people and be able to get in consistently and at scale.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We haven’t heard in- in the press, at least, from the administration any of the details either, but we do know that the U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, announced back on May 9, that this is going to be a U.S. initiative involving only Israeli security. The Israelis are not distributing food. Secretary Rubio was just in Rome. He said he did meet with you. Did you share with him any of your concerns?

MCCAIN: Well, we had a very frank discussion about exactly what was going on and what we could do to help alleviate a lot of this. Some of it- I’m not sure that they were completely clear on how we operate and the size that we are and the logistics ability that we have to be able to do this. So- so we had a very nice discussion. As you know, the Rubio family and the McCain family have been friends for a very long time. And so I was grateful that he would take the time to listen to what- what we had to say, and let us discuss exactly how we feel we should be able to operate. And I was very grateful for and for and honored to have the opportunity to speak to him. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Did he assure you that the U.S. supports the U.N. and the World Food Programme continuing to supply food in Gaza?

MCCAIN: We didn’t really discuss the U.S. participation in any of this. He was really, really concerned with and really trying to understand how we operate and- and the need for what exactly what we do. Again, I will tell you, we will- we will work with anybody, as long as it feeds people and feeds people safely, I might add, on the ground, and keeps our people and people from other agencies safe as well. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re speaking to us now from the Congo. President Trump claimed this past week, the administration was close to brokering a deal between the Congo and Rwanda to end their war. The numbers are staggering in terms of food insecurity. Do you have any sense that there is some kind of cease-fire that you’re close to that could help feed people?

MCCAIN: Well, I’m hearing that there are some possible discussions going to take place in Qatar, some other discussions that have taken place in other countries and certainly other regions of Africa. What I do know is we need to hurry up. People are hungry and people have been displaced, and people- disease outbreaks are becoming more prevalent now because of some of the flooding as a result of the weather, the weather issues here. So my my purpose in this particular trip, I’ve been here many, many times, and my purpose in this particular trip is to see just exactly where we sit, exactly what kind of kind of foods are being allowed in number one and number two, what we can do better to help alleviate some of the, the, these, the issues that are going on here with regards to food. There’s a large amount of people within DRC, Congo, particularly in the east, that don’t have access to food, and if they do, it’s not very much. So it’s- it’s my- my time right now is to make sure that we’re doing the very best we can to make sure people don’t go hungry.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve spoken in the past about just how horrific the conditions are inside Sudan right now. This past week, the Trump administration put further restrictions on the government after it used chemical weapons against its own people, something they said happened in 2024. There’s also a famine there right now. Is there any sign that you will be able to get in and feed people there?

MCCAIN: Well, we’re in there right now. We’re in there and you know, it’s complicated to be able to, to be in there, but we’re in there, we are feeding. But again, there is famine and being- being able to be able to feed, to travel freely, to distribute food, and to get into the places we need to go, is the issue here. And as you know, there’s many factions that play on the ground in Sudan. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Cindy McCain– 

MCCAIN: But, let me say this– 

MARAGRET BRENNAN: Go ahead. 

MCCAIN: –Sudan is the largest humanitarian crisis on the planet right now. It’s the largest one, and we’ve got to- to pay attention to it and make sure that we can continue to get in there and other agencies be able to get in there to do just exactly what they need to do as well.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Executive Director of the World Food Programme, Cindy McCain, thank you for your time this morning.

MCCAIN: Thank you very much for having me.